The Chaosverse Book Club: Week Four

[earlgreytea68]

Chapter Two of Chaos Theory

This chapter is mainly about Jackie. I don't think I ever intended to spend as much time on Jackie as I've ended up doing in this 'verse, but I'm absolutely fascinated by her relationship with her daughter and the strange family her daughter chose.

You know, I forgot that there's an implication in this chapter that Rose's ability to have Time Lord children might be unusual. I have never reached the point, in my thinking about Brem, where he wants to have children, but I wonder if that's ever an issue for these future generations. Hmm.  

Questions for Discussion:

I make lots of references to the Doctor and Jackie sharing terrible taste in television. What do you like to imagine they watch together?

Chapter Three of Chaos Theory

The TARDIS is nurturing. What's interesting about this is that, in "College," we learn that the around this time the Doctor must have taken some coral from the TARDIS to start growing Brem's TARDIS. I wonder if he's already done it here, and that the TARDIS is actually nurturing the baby TARDIS and it's manifesting this way. I like to think that's why.

It's always bothered me a little bit that the Doctor doesn't realize immediately that he can sense the baby. One has to imagine his head is pretty cavernous with all the Time Lords gone, and he feels a tickle in the back of his mind, and, by his own words, he doesn't pay attention to it. I find that stretches credulity a bit.

You know, I always write the TARDIS as being very fond of Rose, but I think in my head that's not because of Rose's Bad-Wolf-ness but because the TARDIS loves the Doctor and Rose makes the Doctor happy. I guess either explanation could work, though.

Rose worries that the baby will replace her, which clearly doesn't happen. But I find it interesting that the opposite almost comes to pass: The Doctor and Brem turn out to be so much alike that, rather than being able to read each other's thoughts, they are amazingly obtuse about each other.

Questions for Discussion:

2nd2ndalto, in a recent comment, said that there's always one line in a fic that sticks with her. What's your one line from this chapter?

Chapter Four of Chaos Theory

You know, I think the Doctor never fully gets the hang of living with a non-telepathic creature like Rose. In this chapter, Rose is determined to have it out, to discuss their feelings, and the Doctor is irritated. I think at least part of the Doctor's irritation stems from the fact that, as a telepathic being, he thinks she should just be able to sense how he feels, and he'll sense how she feels, and then they never have to have a messy discussion about it. I think Time Lords, on the whole, dislike messy emotional confrontation, for this reason.

Rose's doubt in this chapter about her utility as a mother to Gallifreyans rings true to me. But it's especially heartbreaking in light of the fact that we eventually get to see her children trying to make a life without their mother, and we know what a complete disaster it is without her.

Ah, the pendant. Sometimes I remember Rose's pendant, most of the time I forget about it completely. I'm the worst at continuity.

This is a sex scene I actually really like, because I think it's fun.

Questions for Discussion:

Ah, there's been much speculation. What are those thoughts the Doctor leaves out? What did you always imagine them to be?

Next Week: Chapters 5, 6, and 7 of Chaos Theory in Vortex Orbits in Relative Dimensions in Time and Space

Comments

[chicklet73.livejournal.com]

I am now picturing the Doctor and Jackie enjoying Eurovision together.

And this is the most memorable line to me from Chapter 3:

what would they need with a yellow-and-pink girl whose existence was just a blink of an eye?

[beatlejessie.livejournal.com]

Chapter 2
I think it is so true that Jackie's first response to Rose announcing that she is pregnant is "With whose baby?" Jackie is the one character who always reminds us that, as much as we love the Doctor, he is an alien. And the fact that she is so concerned about Rose is just spot-on.

Oh! And the first mention of Complicated Gallifreyan Babies! GAWWWWW.

I make lots of references to the Doctor and Jackie sharing terrible taste in television. What do you like to imagine they watch together?
I think the Doctor likes shows that show off human abilities- like "Britain's Got Talent" or cooking competitions and things like that. Things where he can go "AH! That's brilliant!" and just be all amused with humanity. I also have the feeling that he and Jackie like watching soap operas, and when Rose teases him about it he always claims that it's just rubbish, but really he knows EVERY SINGLE character and storyline. :D

Chapter 3

I just feel so bad for Rose in this chapter!! But I love that the TARDIS is 'nurturing', and I also like the idea that it is partly because the Doctor has started growing another TARDIS.

2nd2ndalto, in a recent comment, said that there's always one line in a fic that sticks with her. What's your one line from this chapter?
It's actually three lines:
The Doctor had never sought out trouble. He never backed down from it, of course, but he never actually sought it. Was it his fault if the trouble always found him, everywhere he went? This is just so true- and, as we learned in "The Doctor's Wife", canon! The TARDIS always takes him where he is needed.

Chapter 4

Ah, there's been much speculation. What are those thoughts the Doctor leaves out? What did you always imagine them to be?
I'm thinking something along the lines of "Rose is the most amazing creature in the universe" and "I need to show Rose that I think she's the most amazing creature in the universe."

Well, at least until I get to the end and the Doctor says he's saving them for later. Then if I think too much about it my brain continues melting into the giant puddle of goo that your GUH-worthy chapter caused!!

Chaos Theory Chapter 2

[doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com]

I love this chapter. I especially love Jackie’s reaction to Rose telling her that she’s pregnant. The line about, “she didn’t have the heart to point out any of the millions of problems she saw with this situation, but returned the smile and said, “good.” It is the epitome sentence of what makes Jackie a fantastic mom. Because the right thing to do is simply hold your pregnant daughter and decide to do what you can to help her, instead of berating and arguing and getting mad - because in a situation like this, especially one in which Rose isn’t crying and unhappy about being pregnant, Jackie could have handled the situation completely inappropriately. But she didn’t, and I love her for it.

I think my favorite line of this chapter has to be the Doctor’s line of, “I’m going to learn.” I adore that the Doctor admits to not knowing anything about birthing babies, except that it’s happened in the past. I’m not sure what it is about how he explains his DNA to Jackie, comparing Rose’s DNA to his own triple helix DNA - I just love how you explained it. I could see it, picture it in my mind, and it makes perfect sense. I’m not sure how your creative mind comes up with some of this stuff, but it’s brilliant and I’m completely sucked in.

To balance that, I can’t believe the amount of scientific explanation vs. emotional feeling that comes out of this chapter. You balance them perfectly, and there isn’t one moment when I was reading that I wanted to skim because it was too “scientific explained” or too “melodramatic.” I really loved every single line to the fullest.

I think my only complaint about this chapter was how quick and easy Rose seemed to accept having a complicated Gallifreyan baby, in how that wouldn’t be easy for her. I know that when I first found out I was pregnant - 9 months seemed FOREVER away, and I can only imagine her dismay at having to wait a year or so - and the Doctor never quite says how long. Heck, it could have been 14 or 15 months! Or 22, like elephants. Which would have just been cruel. LOL.

Chaos Theory Chapter 3

[doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com]

I never put together the theory of the TARDIS nurturing due to the Doctor setting aside the coral and starting to grow Brem’s TARDIS. I always wondered if he just did Brem’s here, or if he actually had done all three, hoping for future children? The coral all did seem to grow at the same time when the kids grew. There really isn’t a story that talks about Athena or Fortuna’s jealousy watching Brem leave in his own TARDIS. But if they did have to wait that additional 2-4 years, I can definitely see that being slightly aggravating for them. LOL.

I actually liked that the Doctor doesn’t realize immediately that he can sense the baby. I would think something was greatly amiss as the baby grew - late in the pregnancy, but mostly I would be concerned for when the baby took his first breath outside of the womb, if the Doctor didn’t realize it then. The baby is so small here, barely even a baby at this point, and I sort of justified it in my mind as the Doctor has such great psychic abilities, that he probably feels all sorts of low-level telepathy all the time, from different parts of space or from different planets... nothing as powerful or equal feeling to what he would feel with another Time Lord, but perhaps just... something - you know?

And Brem being only a few months in the womb (or less considering he’s developing SO slowly) wouldn’t have that great of a Time Lord psychic mind yet. I would like to think that as soon as the baby is born, that the Time Lord consciousness would be overwhelming in presence. But I actually loved the concept that the Doctor didn’t recognize it, or even think about it, because it gave way to the entire story of Rose not being able to soothe the baby, which later allowed her to express her fears towards having a Time Lord baby.

I always thought that the TARDIS loved any inhabitant that loved and respected her. I always saw Rose as being kind and generous to the TARDIS, and caring about her as much as she loved her, and because of that - the TARDIS loved and respected and cared for Rose in return. I always saw the relationship that Rose had with the TARDIS as something special and unique between she and Rose, that had nothing to do really with the Doctor. Just like the Doctor and the TARDIS have a special relationship. I never really saw it as being caused by BAD WOLF, or even just because the TARDIS cared for the Doctor, and as such, cares about Rose because he does. I like to think of the TARDIS sort of like the star whale. So old and so compassionate, and all alone in the world. So all she has is the people who travel within her. So why wouldn’t she try to love and take care of them, individually?

I do love this chapter all the more after reading the series. Not that I didn’t love LOVE it before. Because I did. But I love the fact that Rose is terrified that the baby will replace her, when in actuality, you are right - Brem is SO like the Doctor that they both just need Rose desperately. I wonder, later on in the story, if Athena and Fortuna just accept it more that their mom is human and will die in a blink of their lifespans... because it is always Brem that refuses to give up on her. Or is his entire motivation the fear of hearing the Doctor’s despair again - because he was actually old enough to remember the feeling of the 900 year old Time Lord utterly depressed. He talks about it later on - and so I always wondered if his motivation for wanting Rose to live, wasn’t just because she was his mother, but that his absolute refusal to accept her human lifespan was driven by his need to never feel the Doctor so sad again. And maybe that’s the reason he’s the one out of the three that continues to bring it up and make issue of it, whereas the girls just seem to go along with his lead.

Chaos Theory Chapter 4

[doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com]

I love that the Doctor watches Star Wars, only to point out it’s flaws. I love Rose’s idea of having a Star Wars thesis tucked away somewhere that he’d been just itching to share with the general pop culture public. Brilliant.

I love that when the Doctor is displeased with Rose or someone he loves, he goes silent. I like that about this Doctor, because he usually can’t shut his gob, especially when he’s saving the world. But Rose says something that makes him upset, and he goes silent.

What I like most about the conversation he has with Rose about her being upset, and her need for him to ask her about it - my gosh, how many times have I had this exact conversation with my husband? Rose’s sigh of, “we’re so different” is such an understatement and you can just feel her loss as to what to do, and she knows better than to try and argue with him... I love that her simple acceptance of that makes him want to take the extra step to fix things between them and work all the harder. I always did wonder what went through his mind at that very moment - because he really does go from snapping at her in upset/anger to kissing her shoulder and apologizing. He just turns over rather quickly, and I wish I could see more into his POV at that moment.

And oh, how romantic is his speech to her here about how she captivates him. I’ve gone back and read this section over and over. Every woman needs to hear something to this effect at least once in her life. It is so incredibly romantic and just swipes me off of my feet. I ADORE this section of this chapter of ALL of the Chaosverse.

I love the mood-ring pendant. I thought it was very sweet. I do wish more reference could have been made to it as the kids grew. I would have loved to see Brem and the girls try to figure out how Rose always seemed to know when they were upset. LOL. A small fic where she would walk in while one of them was feeling vulnerable or worried or upset, and make it all better. And she, of course, would know because of the pendant, and they wouldn’t have a clue as to how she knew. I like to imagine that’s partly why Brem knows his mom is brilliant. LOL. Or if Rose set it to be on the Doctor... somehow get past his shields or something, and could be able to tell what kind of mood he’s in at a certain time. It does open the door for a lot of emotional story lines. I love that.

Did you know what the missing thought numbers were before you wrote the fic on it?

Chapters 2-4 Part 1

[lorelaisquared.livejournal.com]

I love Jackie in your 'verse' and I love how supportive she is of Rose here. I also love that she's willing to ask the Doctor all those questions. It's an interesting way of having her gradually come to accept all this.

I forgot that there's an implication in this chapter that Rose's ability to have Time Lord children might be unusual. Hmmm I read that as it's unusual because very few Time Lords have or would mate with humans and because, given the complex nature of triple helix DNA, it's difficult and complicated. So not impossible, just not done very often. So I guess what I'm saying is that I read it as any human female COULD have a Time Lord child but most wouldn't. Does that make sense?

Oh I love the idea that the Doctor is already growing a TARDIS for Brem in this chapter and that's contributing to the TARDIS's nurturing nature. Although, given the Doctor's grumpiness about the nurturing at first I wonder if maybe he decided to grow Brem a TARDIS right after this instead. Like maybe after the scene where he realizes that his fretting has panicked his baby, and as part of that he realizes how much he loves the baby and also how he wants to baby to have a TARDIS of it's own one day.

You know, I always write the TARDIS as being very fond of Rose, but I think in my head that's not because of Rose's Bad-Wolf-ness but because the TARDIS loves the Doctor and Rose makes the Doctor happy. I guess either explanation could work, though. I like option B better also. I like to think too that the TARDIS has come to love Rose for being Rose just as the Doctor has. (But not just because the Doctor does).

This is the first time I've read these chapters since reading through the first time and it's interesting to me how many little things become ironic or precious or touching with the advantage of forsight. The happy moments are sometimes bittersweet (and yet even more precious) because we know they won't last forever, and it's amusing to see how very different things turn out from how Rose and the Doctor seem to expect them to turn out. Which I suppose is a lot like real life. We always have so many expectations for our futures and they seldom turn out the way we expect although often we do end up with something better and richer than we ever dreamed possible - which ultimately is what the Doctor and Rose get. I don't think either of them would believe it at this time in their life if someone came to them and told them that one day they'd have 3 very happy, healthy, Time Lord Children and they'd be together and in love and happy for HUNDREDS of years. They just wouldn't fathom it at this point. Which I think is actually kinda beautiful.

What's your one line from this chapter

I was going to pick the bit about him cuddling the baby in his mind because I thing that's just such an adorable and beautiful image, but then I came across this and it stood out to me even more:

You are never going to make it through this if you stop talking to him.

I find that line really fascinating because if you think about it, this advice could apply to Rose's whole life with the Doctor, not just Brems birth. I think one reason their relationship works so well for so many years is that Rose started learning at this point how important it is to make him talk to her even when he doesn't want to talk or doesn't think he needs to talk. It's easy to forget that they are completely different species of beings but the reality is that the Doctor does not think or function the way that humans do and Rose has to learn to communicate with him what her needs are because he's not going to ever be able to figure that out intuitively. On the other side of this, Rose also learns to listen to the Doctor so she can understand and accept where he's coming from. It also is vital information for her so she can learn what battles to pick and which ones to drop. This communication is so important because otherwise they'd never be able to make it work long term.

Chapters 2-4 Part 2

[lorelaisquared.livejournal.com]

it's especially heartbreaking in light of the fact that we eventually get to see her children trying to make a life without their mother, and we know what a complete disaster it is without her. it's SO heartbreaking. Her children love her and need her so much, although maybe in a way they all needed to loose each other for a little bit to appreciate just how much the need each other? Or maybe that's just me trying to rationalize away the grief I know is coming eventually.

I had an interesting thought about the pendant while I was reading this - That it could be comical if when Brem was older Rose was wearing the pendant one day and the colour of it revealed his feelings for a girl or something but then I realized that was stupid because Rose wouldn't need a pendant to know that. Rose would just know. I'd love to see you use the pendant a bit more though.

As for the thoughts the Doctor left out, I think at least one of them is how much he loves Rose, because at this point it's very clear that he does, but you've established a few times that he hasn't said it yet and I feel like this is one of those times where he could have, or at least would have wanted to, but he is once again holding himself back.

better late than never

[isileil.livejournal.com]

Chapter Two
What do you like to imagine they watch together?
It would have to be reality television shows. The Doctor loves humans and human nature and Jackie loves gossip.

Chapter Three
I like to think that the TARDIS started growing little baby TARDIS's on her own and the Doctor just took credit for it. And I can understand the Doctor not recognizing the CGB in his mind right away. The little niggle in his mind started as nothing and grew gradually. It's a part of his mind that's atrophied.

What's your one line from this chapter?
I like this one: “Piles of fluffy pillows and cuddly blankets appeared on his bed, and he wrinkled his nose at them, which amused Rose, as he didn’t even sleep.”

Chapter Four
It's funny that you remarked that you're bad at continuity. When I talk about your verse, the amazing continuity is one of the points I tend to rave about. I'm a huge Star Wars fan, so bonus points for the reference.