The Chaosverse Book Club: Week Four

[earlgreytea68]

Chapter Two of Chaos Theory

This chapter is mainly about Jackie. I don't think I ever intended to spend as much time on Jackie as I've ended up doing in this 'verse, but I'm absolutely fascinated by her relationship with her daughter and the strange family her daughter chose.

You know, I forgot that there's an implication in this chapter that Rose's ability to have Time Lord children might be unusual. I have never reached the point, in my thinking about Brem, where he wants to have children, but I wonder if that's ever an issue for these future generations. Hmm.  

Questions for Discussion:

I make lots of references to the Doctor and Jackie sharing terrible taste in television. What do you like to imagine they watch together?

Chapter Three of Chaos Theory

The TARDIS is nurturing. What's interesting about this is that, in "College," we learn that the around this time the Doctor must have taken some coral from the TARDIS to start growing Brem's TARDIS. I wonder if he's already done it here, and that the TARDIS is actually nurturing the baby TARDIS and it's manifesting this way. I like to think that's why.

It's always bothered me a little bit that the Doctor doesn't realize immediately that he can sense the baby. One has to imagine his head is pretty cavernous with all the Time Lords gone, and he feels a tickle in the back of his mind, and, by his own words, he doesn't pay attention to it. I find that stretches credulity a bit.

You know, I always write the TARDIS as being very fond of Rose, but I think in my head that's not because of Rose's Bad-Wolf-ness but because the TARDIS loves the Doctor and Rose makes the Doctor happy. I guess either explanation could work, though.

Rose worries that the baby will replace her, which clearly doesn't happen. But I find it interesting that the opposite almost comes to pass: The Doctor and Brem turn out to be so much alike that, rather than being able to read each other's thoughts, they are amazingly obtuse about each other.

Questions for Discussion:

2nd2ndalto, in a recent comment, said that there's always one line in a fic that sticks with her. What's your one line from this chapter?

Chapter Four of Chaos Theory

You know, I think the Doctor never fully gets the hang of living with a non-telepathic creature like Rose. In this chapter, Rose is determined to have it out, to discuss their feelings, and the Doctor is irritated. I think at least part of the Doctor's irritation stems from the fact that, as a telepathic being, he thinks she should just be able to sense how he feels, and he'll sense how she feels, and then they never have to have a messy discussion about it. I think Time Lords, on the whole, dislike messy emotional confrontation, for this reason.

Rose's doubt in this chapter about her utility as a mother to Gallifreyans rings true to me. But it's especially heartbreaking in light of the fact that we eventually get to see her children trying to make a life without their mother, and we know what a complete disaster it is without her.

Ah, the pendant. Sometimes I remember Rose's pendant, most of the time I forget about it completely. I'm the worst at continuity.

This is a sex scene I actually really like, because I think it's fun.

Questions for Discussion:

Ah, there's been much speculation. What are those thoughts the Doctor leaves out? What did you always imagine them to be?

Next Week: Chapters 5, 6, and 7 of Chaos Theory in Vortex Orbits in Relative Dimensions in Time and Space

Comments

Chaos Theory Chapter 3

[doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com]

I never put together the theory of the TARDIS nurturing due to the Doctor setting aside the coral and starting to grow Brem’s TARDIS. I always wondered if he just did Brem’s here, or if he actually had done all three, hoping for future children? The coral all did seem to grow at the same time when the kids grew. There really isn’t a story that talks about Athena or Fortuna’s jealousy watching Brem leave in his own TARDIS. But if they did have to wait that additional 2-4 years, I can definitely see that being slightly aggravating for them. LOL.

I actually liked that the Doctor doesn’t realize immediately that he can sense the baby. I would think something was greatly amiss as the baby grew - late in the pregnancy, but mostly I would be concerned for when the baby took his first breath outside of the womb, if the Doctor didn’t realize it then. The baby is so small here, barely even a baby at this point, and I sort of justified it in my mind as the Doctor has such great psychic abilities, that he probably feels all sorts of low-level telepathy all the time, from different parts of space or from different planets... nothing as powerful or equal feeling to what he would feel with another Time Lord, but perhaps just... something - you know?

And Brem being only a few months in the womb (or less considering he’s developing SO slowly) wouldn’t have that great of a Time Lord psychic mind yet. I would like to think that as soon as the baby is born, that the Time Lord consciousness would be overwhelming in presence. But I actually loved the concept that the Doctor didn’t recognize it, or even think about it, because it gave way to the entire story of Rose not being able to soothe the baby, which later allowed her to express her fears towards having a Time Lord baby.

I always thought that the TARDIS loved any inhabitant that loved and respected her. I always saw Rose as being kind and generous to the TARDIS, and caring about her as much as she loved her, and because of that - the TARDIS loved and respected and cared for Rose in return. I always saw the relationship that Rose had with the TARDIS as something special and unique between she and Rose, that had nothing to do really with the Doctor. Just like the Doctor and the TARDIS have a special relationship. I never really saw it as being caused by BAD WOLF, or even just because the TARDIS cared for the Doctor, and as such, cares about Rose because he does. I like to think of the TARDIS sort of like the star whale. So old and so compassionate, and all alone in the world. So all she has is the people who travel within her. So why wouldn’t she try to love and take care of them, individually?

I do love this chapter all the more after reading the series. Not that I didn’t love LOVE it before. Because I did. But I love the fact that Rose is terrified that the baby will replace her, when in actuality, you are right - Brem is SO like the Doctor that they both just need Rose desperately. I wonder, later on in the story, if Athena and Fortuna just accept it more that their mom is human and will die in a blink of their lifespans... because it is always Brem that refuses to give up on her. Or is his entire motivation the fear of hearing the Doctor’s despair again - because he was actually old enough to remember the feeling of the 900 year old Time Lord utterly depressed. He talks about it later on - and so I always wondered if his motivation for wanting Rose to live, wasn’t just because she was his mother, but that his absolute refusal to accept her human lifespan was driven by his need to never feel the Doctor so sad again. And maybe that’s the reason he’s the one out of the three that continues to bring it up and make issue of it, whereas the girls just seem to go along with his lead.

Re: Chaos Theory Chapter 3

[doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com]

Personally, this chapter is one of my all-time favorites as well, that I go back and re-read, mainly because for the first time, we get real insight into the fear that Rose is feeling. Her starting to cry as soon as she realizes that the Doctor was able to soothe the baby in a few moments after she’d been trying to for hours is just devastating. I love his unwillingness to leave her alone while she’s upset, even if he believes her line about “hormones.” I love his line to her as, “come watch me.” I’m not really sure why, but that line is so perfect for me. Obviously, Rose can never do anything BUT watch him pilot the TARDIS. It isn’t as if she helps. I just like that he verbalizes it. He doesn’t just say, come to the console room with me, or “come help me move her,” or “come keep me company.” He just says, “come watch me,” and I love the way he phrases that.

The Doctor carries Rose quite a lot, very romantically, in these very early chapters. Such a gentleman. And so strong. We don’t really get to see the super-strong Doctor all that much, and I kind of love the moments where he easily lifts pregnant Rose into his arms and carries her around the TARDIS. Heh.

I love that crying Rose doesn’t get one complaint from the Doctor about going home. Reminds me of the episode where the Doctor takes Rose to Jackie’s flat after the cyberman episode. I get the feeling that Rose didn’t even have to ask him in that episode - he just did it for her because he understood that she needed to see her mum. As oblivious as he is at times, he also is more understanding than he lets on.

I love that Jackie’s first thought after seeing that Rose is crying is that obviously, the Doctor must have done something. I do love Jackie.

I think the most heartbreaking line of this chapter is, “She had wanted to give him a baby, to give him someone who would outlast her, but she saw at that moment that the baby would replace her. He was no longer to need a silly human to drive away the loneliness. He would have this complicated Gallifreyan baby that would be just like him, and they would take care of each other, in their complicated Gallifreyan ways, and what would they need with a yellow-and-pink girl whose existence was just a blink of an eye?”

HEARTBREAKING. And I can totally see her thinking this, because who wouldn’t be? I also love the explanation as to why she’s so pro-baby. About giving the Doctor this, someone so he doesn’t ever have to be alone. Rose is so incredibly mature in some ways, and this is the perfect example of how well she understands the Doctor. She knows that her life won’t compare to the years to come with him, and she loves him so much - enough to not only accept that - but to gift him with a person, so he doesn’t have to be alone forever when she’s gone. I love Rose.

Re: Chaos Theory Chapter 3

[earlgreytea68.livejournal.com]

I think the Doctor likes having an audience when he's piloting the TARDIS. I think that's why he does it so dramatically. Rose is good company for him, yes, but what he likes especially is that she *watches* him, she finds him interesting. I think it's habit that he asks her to come watch him, it's the way he thinks about it.

Ha! You're right, the Doctor is always carrying Rose around places.

I think, sometimes, the Doctor really does get that Rose just needs her mum. I think the Doctor, coming from his sense of loneliness, does recognize how nice it is to have someone to come home to.

Some people were concerned that it seemed that Rose wanted the baby more for *him* than for *her.* I think she wanted the baby for both of them. She adored the baby, that's clear to me. But she also understood what he represented for her Doctor, and that made the baby even more special for her.

Re: Chaos Theory Chapter 3

[earlgreytea68.livejournal.com]

I didn't write this chapter thinking about the Doctor's coral-growing, but I think it could work!

The Doctor started the TARDIS when he learned of the pregnancy (or the baby, in Fortuna's case). It was Brem who figured out how to speed up their process. He did, however, take off in his own before his sisters did. They were still at university when Brem was out and therefore considered by his human mother old enough to be on his own. Rose insisted Athena and Fortuna wait for theirs. Brem took them on lots of trips in his in the meantime.

That's a good point, the Doctor probably is used to low-level telepathy from all over the place, so maybe tiny baby consciousness wouldn't stand out for him as much.

Yeah, I think you're right about how the TARDIS feels about Rose. Rose is so nice and kind, so full of compassion, that the TARDIS can't help but love her and be nice to her. It's the same reason the TARDIS absolutely adores the children and spoils them.

Brem is the most like his father, so Brem is the most obsessed with Rose's mortality, with the idea of losing the people around him. However, I think most of it is rooted in the fact that Brem is the one of the kids who can most vividly remember Rose not being there. The Doctor fell apart, and Brem remembers having to pick up the pieces, and Brem will do anything not to have to do that again, not just for himself but for his father. If Brem hadn't been through losing his mother, I think he would be much better at accepting her mortality, more the way Athena and Fortuna behave.