earlgreytea68 | The Chaosverse Book Club: Week Six

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chaosverse book club

The Chaosverse Book Club: Week Six

Chapter Eight of Chaos Theory

There's a sex scene in this chapter, and then there's a fade-to-black in this chapter. I admit I kind of like the fade-to-black better in this particular chapter.

It's a bit remarkable to me to go back and read about baby!Brem and see so much of adult!Brem in him. It's not like, when I originally started writing Brem, I thought I'd still be writing him as old as I've written him these days, so I didn't really stop to think what sort of adult this baby would grow into. But the independent baby who likes to be cuddled, who doesn't say much out of sheer stubbornness, whose opinions are decided and whose affections are fierce--that baby is so much the Brem I've come to know that I am astonished how fully formed he showed up in my head, from the very beginning. He is the only character I've ever written--original or fanfic-wise--who has been so very clear, so very much belonging to himself, from the first time he showed up in my head. The gimmick of Chaos Theory is the idea that it's all Brem's journal--which is not, of course, true, since it starts before his birth--but it makes sense that, in the end, he somehow won himself the naming rights over the story.

Questions for Discussion:

So, future fics about Brem and his father explore in great detail Brem's lost faith in him, Brem's inability to fully trust him the way the girls do, Brem's constant determination to be more of his equal than just his son. (I think, actually, that it might be a huge breakthrough for the two of them, that moment in "Something About Stars" when Brem tells the Time Lords that he's his father's son. I think the talk Brem has with his father after that settles a lot of the Doctor's doubts about the mistakes that he made with Brem. They certainly seem to have an easier relationship after that, and Brem is not afraid to let his father take the lead in "How Fortuna Saved the Universe." But I'm getting ahead of myself.) Anyway, I never really thought about it before, but I wonder if a little of Brem's wariness with his father started way back here. I wonder if Brem started to harden a little bit right here, until the little boy who did what he had to and held the Vortex open. Thoughts?

Chapter Nine of Chaos Theory

Here, in this chapter, is a long paragraph about Brem's hero worship of his father...and how he tries to hide it from his father. I find the fact that I wrote that fascinating. What is it about a year-old baby that would cause him to hide the fact that he adores his father, to pretend indifference and even annoyance? I think partly it might be the suffocating telepathic nature of their relationship at this point, I think Brem might be looking for some air. But I wonder if it isn't one of Brem's most Doctor-y traits in the end, this caution when it comes to his emotions, this terror at the imminent heartbreak that could follow. Sometimes I think Brem might actually feel more than the girls do, in a deeper way than the girls do. It is difficult to imagine Brem being the one born alone, instead of Fortuna, and recovering from that the way Fortuna has. Brem is the only child I still can't envision falling helplessly in love, and I think it's because it will be crashing for him when it happens. He may need nine hundred years to brace himself for it, the way his father did.

And the Doctor is harsh to Brem in this chapter, over the new baby thing. I think it's understandable--I think he overreacts, not able to put himself in the shoes of his very happy child, instead of the shoes of the lonely Time Lord that he remembers being--but it makes me wince as I read it. If the Doctor had any idea what a perfect big brother Brem would turn out to be...

What I love best is Rose's insight into both of them. Rose is the one who sees immediately that Brem and the Doctor are so incredibly alike that they may always be a little bit at odds with each other. And she sees that this early on.

Brem comes around to Athena when he realizes that Athena is basically a companion. He is so much like his father it's absurd.

Questions for Discussion:

I think Brem as a baby is pretty much a smaller version of Brem as an adult but Athena as a baby seems different to me than she is as an adult. Thoughts on that?

Chapter Ten of Chaos Theory

Ah, one of the rare Chaosverse fights occurs this chapter. I actually really love to write arguments, I don't know why I don't do it more often! And I admit I am particularly proud of this argument, because I think it's a very real one, one that starts small and simmers and simmers and is born out of the completely different worldviews of Rose and the Doctor, which seldom come into play but flummox both of them when they do disagree this strongly. It's interesting that it's a fight they never really stop having, because it's the same discussion that opens "College": Brem shoudl go to school and make friends and develop social skills.

Much is made in this chapter of the fact that they've never encountered Weeping Angels. Hmm...

In fixing the Doctor's loneliness, Rose inadvertently makes a lonely life for herself. And I'm not sure it gets better for her, in the huge amount of time that stretches in front of her. They have each other, and a family that keeps growing, and it helps, of course. But Rose has chosen a life where she can never really have friends, and I think the first dawning realization of that happens here. They are better at trying to have friends in the future, because they really both need such things, but a TARDIS life is an essentially lonely life, in the end. It can't really be anything but.

I have no questions for discussion on this chapter! So, questions for me?

Next week: Chapters 11, 12, and 13 of Chaos Theory in Vortex Orbits in Relative Dimensions in Time and Space

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Chapter Eight
I wonder if Brem started to harden a little bit right here, until the little boy who did what he had to and held the Vortex open. Thoughts?

I like the theory that Gallifreyans remember everything, from birth and even sometimes before. That would fit with this idea. If he understood as an infant that his father was off saving the universe, that would leave him as the man of the house to look after him mother and grandmother. I don't think it would have occurred to Brem to let a little thing like being a baby get in the way of protecting his family. They were only human after all, they needed him. I imagine these feelings would stay with him as he got older.

Chapter Nine
I think Brem as a baby is pretty much a smaller version of Brem as an adult but Athena as a baby seems different to me than she is as an adult. Thoughts on that?

Hmm... Brem will always be Brem, regardless of his size. Athena may be a bit more complicated, but that's girls for you. As a baby, she's quiet and passive. As an adult, she's more extroverted, not quite seeking attention, but definitely enjoying the spot light. That may have something to do with being the middle child. Not the oldest, not the youngest, she can't be the same quiet and passive child if she wants to be noticed.

Chapter Ten

I wondered why you chose to not have any companions travel with the family. It's nice that the Chaosverse doesn't directly mirror cannon, it makes it better when something from the series does pop up. But maybe Rose wouldn't have been so lonely if Martha and/or Donna had travelled with them for a while. I would've like to see how different Martha would be if the Doctor were never available.

Oh, a big question I've had for a while. With the Doctor being from a telepathic race, a lot of fannon has the Doctor and Rose using telepathy during sex. What made you decide not to go in that direction?

Yeah, I think Gallifreyans really do remember everything. Maybe not every single moment of their lives, but they can remember the major points of their infancy, I think.

And I love what you have to say about Brem thinking, even as a baby, that he needs to take care of the humans around him. What a beautiful idea. His age is not nearly as important as his species. Even at this point, his Time-Lord self-importance is there. ;-)

Yeah, it could be that Athena had to develop as the middle-child-ness of her life got cemented. Here, she was pretty much the baby and so didn't need to be loud, she was always getting a ton of attention.

You know, I didn't really see them as being the sort of family who would have a companion around. I wasn't sure how it would affect their dynamic. There's a lot of chaos on their TARDIS, I'm not sure what a companion would think of it. And I think Rose worries about what they look like from the outside. And I'm not sure she wouldn't think she might need to be on her best behavior, or something. But I do think they go on a few trips with Donna, I really have to write those someday.

As for Martha, I admit I try to avoid writing her because I don't like her character. I don't want to be mean, you know?

I love fics with telepathic sex. I didn't use it myself because I wasn't confident I could write it, simple as that. ;-) But I do love them. However, I kind of like that it doesn't exist in my 'verse because I feel like maybe the Doctor has to work harder now.

I think you make an interesting point about Brem's weariness starting at this point. Especially given how upset he is when his father leaves them on earth (I know some of this is due to not being able to sense his father) either way, I think this could definitely lead to Brem not fully trusting his father not to leave them like that again.

I think Brem as a baby is pretty much a smaller version of Brem as an adult but Athena as a baby seems different to me than she is as an adult. Thoughts on that?

I wonder how much of this has to do with Brem's early resentment/disinterest in Athena. I feel like she probably would have sensed that and maybe she acts a bit the way she does as a baby because of it. Letting Brem be the center of attention and just taking a back seat to follow his lead all in the hopes of pleasing him and not upsetting him. Then later, after things change in the Doomsdayish sense, she starts to come into her own a bit more partly because Brem sort of needs her to. IDK it's just a theory but it would make sense.

Rose did choose a lonely existence it's true, although I don't think it's ever an unhappy one. But it must be so hard to be the only human on the TARDIS sometimes. Especially since she's only ever going to be the only one to see things in a human way. She's always outnumbered. Luckily she's become VERY good at dealing with Time Lords and convincing them to do things her way! :)

Yeah, I think it really could be that Brem's abandonment issues start right here. I'd always thought they started with Rose disappearing, but I think I've been selling short how much upheaval his father leaving here caused him. I think Rose's time in Pete's World definitely didn't *help,* of course...

Oooh, this is such a great idea about Athena, that she took a step back because she sensed Brem needed her to. Athena has always been very sensitive to Brem's moods, very understanding of him, so this would make total sense.

She gets used to her Time Lord family, but yes, she's always the only human. And she's basically an immortal human, which means she's not really a human anymore, either. She's one of a kind.

I think Rose's time in Pete's World was probably the last straw for Brem, but I think he was loosing faith in his father over time. It's a fascinating contrast to the way he idolizes his father early on.

I'm glad you liked my thoughts on Athena. It just makes sense to me that she would be like this.

I like the idea of Rose as "One of a kind". Of course at this point none of them know she's immortal. Which adds another interesting layer to everything.

What's nice is that I think Brem does eventually come full circle, and, as an adult, doesn't quite idolize his father but trusts him to an extent I think he hadn't since his babyhood. And that's nice for the Doctor.

Yes, that's very true! It's probably a lot healthier for him that way.

Did you plan the title early on with the knowledge that it would all be Brem’s journal? Was Brem fleshed out from the beginning, or did it all just sort of occur to you mid-writing? Because it’s just perfect, and I love Brem’s journaling, and I love how you made it pertain to the title. It just works SO well.

There is just something about the nuzzling of one’s neck that I find hugely loving and romantic. I love how Rose greets the Doctor, and I love that he isn’t just appeasing her - he’s genuinely missed her just as much, if not more.

I ADORE Brem looking “underwhelmed” that he can talk. Hysterical, and yet - so Brem. And his “looking long-suffering” as he said the simple words at 4 months old. I couldn’t love it more.

I love how Brem glares at the Doctor at 4 months old when the Doctor keeps insisting that Brem saying words is less than impressive. That he should be doing complex sentences. I wonder if Brem honestly CAN at this point, he just doesn’t see the point.

Jackie’s line of “well at least we were here,” and the Doctor saying, “Right.” and walking into the TARDIS is so sad. Sometimes, Jackie can say just the wrong thing. Poor Doctor. And yet, I can still sympathize with Jackie defending her daughter. But Jackie’s got it wrong and I love that Rose defends him once again.

It does make me wonder at that exact moment what the Doctor was thinking. Was he annoyed at Jackie for not knowing him better, or thinking bitterly about the fact that he had to go away and really didn’t want to, but did what needed to be done... But then, as soon as Rose is inside the TARDIS, he’s moved on. No time for being depressed. He’s missed her anyway. *wink*

It’s the little things that you add to the sex scenes, and post, that make them so endearing. I love Rose pressing her nose against him post-sex. It’s wonderful and intimate, even though we’ve just had a sex scene. It’s what makes it seem more real.

I think that after 2 weeks of 4-6 hours of sleep a night, Rose must be EXHAUSTED.

I love that the Doctor changes suits and doesn’t even HIDE the fact that he just shagged Jackie’s daughter to her. And also - no shirt! LOL! I love it. Jackie HAD to have noticed.

You don’t mention the Doctor falling asleep, but something tells me he didn’t sleep much or at all during the 2 months he was away. I imagine he fell asleep with Rose, for a little while. Maybe?

I love that baby Brem doesn’t babble, while I think adult Brem can babble with the best of them.

I love that we get to first see the planet Thhhhhhhhhhhhhmyr, but with no mention of any fudge. :(

I wish I had a TARDIS babysitter. SO much.

Why did you settle on 3 children in the end? I think it’s the perfect number, but I’m curious... why not more, in the end?

Discussion Question:

I think some of Brem’s weariness of his Dad had to start here, watching his Dad up and leave from time to time to save the universe, where he’s left at home. Perhaps the Doctor not realizing certain things, like cutting Brem off from his mind accidentally, made Brem more aware that his father makes mistakes at a very early age? I would like to think at least until the incident at 4, Brem was relatively happy and was enraptured by his father. I think Brem easily sees all of the Doctor’s faults, very easily. But I think what is amazing about Brem’s journey, is that from the age of 4 where the Doctor lets him down SO much, Brem’s journey is about finding his father in the man that is the Doctor again, and gaining faith in him as a person, accepting him with faults instead of seeing him as only his faults. I think it takes Brem a long time to understand how much his father tries and how much he loves, and to accept that that is a good thing, and that yes, the Doctor makes mistakes - huge ones that can’t be fixed and patched together with an “I’m sorry.” But I never wanted to believe that the only reason Brem forgives the Doctor in the end, is because the Doctor needs him to so desperately. That he needs Brem in his life, and so Brem will be there for him.

Yes, he makes a choice, then and there, to be a Time Lord, and to continue that life with his father. But, I have to believe that it’s more than that. It’s for Brem, too. Because the Doctor is good, and does try, and that’s what is important, and Brem has seen that and understands the importance of what being a Time Lord means to the universe.

I think the thing that happened at 4 was only so horrible because Brem was FOUR. At some point in Brem’s life, he would have to make a choice and a parallel universe would have been created because there is always the “what if” in any choice that is made. And I think that is what the entire upset was about. The uncertainty that the choice Brem made might have been the wrong one. And that he had to make that choice at 4, when he wasn’t an adult to weigh the odds, and he was being swayed by his father and was forced into making a choice at such a young age... it was just too early. But it still would have happened eventually.

My question is this: Did Brem’s problems stem from the fact that he was only 4 when making this decision, or is this something that each of the children went through, or would have gone through at some point in their lives... At the moment where they change the course of the universe to solve a problem. At whatever point that is in each of their lives, do each of them go through a period of uncertainty and horror at wondering if they made the right choice.

Is this something they have to live with, or does it happen so often, that the guilt of conscious of living with these decisions simply become a way of life? Or is being a Time Lord somehow synonymous with being able to handle these decisions than mere mortals?

Is part of the reason the Doctor lives with such a sense of guilt and remorse the fact that he does weigh his options too close to heart(s) and as such, is constantly at unease with the choices he makes due to the “what ifs?”

But I can’t believe that, in the end. I think the Doctor always chooses right. It may not be the easiest, but it will always be the best. And if he feels guilt, then maybe he does - but I think his choices and decisions are always on the straight and narrow. I really do. And I think Brem made the right choice, too.

I think it just took Brem some time to be able to say that out loud, and to believe it. But I think he did think he made the right choice. I think he simply didn’t want to have had to make the choice at all in the first place. But had the choice not been his, I think the choice to save Rose and Fortuna would still have been the right one.

I think they all second-guess themselves, and I think they all experience guilt. I think it was worse for Brem because he was *so* young. He didn't know himself well enough to deal with the repercussions, to move on. He didn't know the universe well enough to evaluate his decision. And he had developed no real ability to trust himself. I think Time Lords are better able to live with the decisions they have to make, because they're used to the idea of having to make them, but I think it's never really easy for them. As I think the Doctor's experience shows. As you say, he is constantly ill at ease with many of his decisions, I think.

Brem made the right choice, and the Doctor usually does, too. But they see all the possibilities of all the timelines not chosen, and I think they're haunted by it.

Ha! Adult Brem babbles because he was saving it up. :-)

Well, it's the planet of the sweets, so it does have fudge, it's just that it's really only Matt who's a special fan of the fudge.

You know, the idea of the TARDIS baby-sitter was kind of a cop-out, but I needed the ability to give the Doctor and Rose alone time, and it's not like they can get a real baby-sitter all that easily. But I think it works out and makes sense!

I am one of three children, and I've always thought it's the perfect number, so it's what I gave the Doctor and Rose. Also, I had three names that I wanted to use. ;-)

You're very right, Brem's entire journey is a journey toward restoring his faith in his father, this time with his eyes wide open and full acknowledgment of his father's limitations. But he really does reach that point. He doesn't forgive the Doctor because he thinks the Doctor needs him. In a way, he forgives the Doctor because *he* needs *the Doctor.* He adores his father, and he eventually is able to acknowledge that. And, more importantly, he *respects* his father, and that makes all the difference for him.

And yeah, Brem would eventually have had to face something like he faced at the age of four. He was just too young for it, he was ill-equipped to face it. He just wanted his father to fix the world for him, and his father couldn't, his father needed Brem to do it, and it was a rude awakening for Brem.

I am not much of a planner. Brem slowly started to emerge as I kept writing the fic, I never expected him to be so central. And the idea that the title would be what it is, and that it would be pronounced by Brem, didn't come to me until I was close to the end of the fic.

Oh, yes, the Doctor missed Rose GREATLY.

I think Brem probably could speak in sentences, but he's very, very stubborn and difficult, that baby. :-)

I think, when the Doctor says "Right" and walks onto the TARDIS, he's bitter about the time that he missed, and annoyed that Jackie would bring him up and remind him of it. He wants to move on, he doesn't want to think about it anymore.

Rose really is exhausted. She'll end up sleeping for a while. Eventually.

And I think the Doctor is like, "Eh, what's the point of hiding it now, we have a baby and everything, I can't be bothered."

He does eventually fall asleep with Rose. I think the Doctor sleeps much better, when he does sleep, when he's in bed with Rose.

I was recommending this story to a friend of mine, because she was telling me that she’d been through everything on Teaspoon, and that she was down to trying to find a diamond amidst all of not so great fics over at ff.net to find a new, decent fic, and so I was explaining to her about Chaosverse and how it was a LiveJournal fic... I’m still very new to LiveJournal fics, and never would have come across Chaosverse had LadyChi not recommended it to me, but anyway, I’m babbling... But I was curious as to why you decided to do the fic on LiveJournal, and not also have it up in more frequented and public venues? I think there are tons of people who would love to read it, but would never hear about it or come in contact with it, simply because I assume (because I’m really bad at it) that searching out fics on LiveJournal is much more difficult?

I know this doesn’t have much to do with chapter 9, but I’m curious.

I love the image of the Doctor giving the ladies a stern lecture on the importance of free radicals in tea. I love that Rose simply has to distract him with something shiny instead of getting embarrassed or attempting to lecture him. She manages him so well in certain situations.

I love that Brem waits until Rose DOESN”T want him to be remarkable to be extraordinary. “Rose sighed.” Hysterical.

The image of the Doctor and baby Brem both pointing their sonic screwdrivers at something sends me into a fit of “awwwws.” Fan-art, please! I also love the image of Brem being a bit like Linus from Peanuts.

Brem cracks me up as a baby. This entire paragraph explains Brem’s personality SO WELL. “Amusingly enough, Brem pretended indifference most of the time, affected offended airs when the Doctor gathered him up and dragged him to view some phenomenon or other, but cried most fervently if Rose attempted to “rescue” him. Even more amusingly, the Doctor couldn’t seem to see through the act, and kept berating Brem for not showing himself to be suitably excited by the places he took him.” I love these two sentences so much.

We don’t know about Athena and Fortuna as babies like this. I’m sure the Doctor dragged the girls around like he dragged Brem... or did he sorta lose hope in them when they started in on pink glitter and princesses and whatnot?? LOL. Brem was always his... person (thank you Greys Anatomy), you know? From day one, Brem and the Doctor just get each other. I love the relationship that the Doctor has with his daughters, but it’s his relationship with Brem that stands out. I like what Athena says later in the fic, about Brem being so similar to the Doctor - that they both always just suck the air out of a room, or something to that effect.

It does make me curious, because later in the college years, when Fortuna deadlocks Brem out of the room, and she finally lets him in and he’s impressed, and she tells him that just because she and Athena don’t make a big deal out of everything all the time, that they know how to do the same things Brem and the Doctor did. And I remember being both surprised and unsurprised by that statement, simply because we don’t see these Time Lord educational growing up moments with the girls as much. They are always doing something very little girly, which I love and wouldn’t want you to change that for the world - but it did always make me feel a bit like I missed something, because I didn’t know that Athena and Fortuna got the same Time Lord knowledge that Brem has until you make note of it when they are adults. But I do know that Fortuna becomes the best pilot, and obviously, she was taught just like the rest of them.

Do you ever think about going back and writing a few moments in the girl’s childhood that shows them being interested in something other than glitter and dolls, so that later when they are Time Lords, it’s gives their abilities more foundation? Was there ever a moment where Brem and/or the Doctor had to depend on the girls to get them out of a pickle? Obviously, we get that Brem doesn’t fear for the girls at all, he knows they can handle themselves. And we do see some of that - with Fortuna and the rain egg, for example - but those are on their own, and I always assumed it was kept to herself. But I also love the occasional protective streak that we see from Brem - like the scene after Matt and Fortuna get back from the carnival and Brem is appalled that that guy cheated on Fortuna. And the Doctor working in his office (waiting up) for Athena to get back...

I guess we do get to see Athena in the girl scout fic show her awesomeness, so maybe my thought process is nil. But I just know that in reading this fic, I always just KNEW that Brem was going to be 100% Time Lord from day 1, while the girls, I found it slightly questionable until you told us that they, too, were 100% Time Lords as well. And I mean in every way - knowledge of TARDIS maintenance, and knowledge of Time Lines and all that stuff - not just knowing the rules, like Rose does, but actually being able to work with it.

I guess my question is this: Was it a conscious decision to make Brem seems so different from the girls, or did it just happen because a) he was written to be most like the Doctor, and b) he was a boy compared to the girls being girls?

But I do love how Brem was written different from the girls, and I do love how the girls’ childhood was written, along with how they interact with Brem.

So the Doctor is responsible for Brem’s room looking like a mechanics shop. LOL! “He’s a tinkerer!” So what are/were the girls?

I love Brem’s question of, “A baby what?” Such a perfect, honest question.

I think this chapter is the only chapter in which the Doctor makes Brem cry by being mean. I love Brem’s melodramatic-ness. And the Doctor’s idea of how a one year old should respond to new baby news.

I love that even Brem, the most perfect baby in the universe, throws a full-blown tantrum.

You’ve got c-sections down pat! Rose being bored with the whole process, and Brem watching - LOL! Rose’s reaction of, “He’s not quite normal, Mum,” made me laugh.

Jackie and the Doctor agree on Athena’s name - HA!

I love reading about Athena’s hero worship of Brem. I wonder if that has anything to do with how he felt in comparison to the Doctor in her mind?

Another snapshot has to be Brem leading Athena around like the Doctor does with Rose. So incredibly sweet and endearing.

Brem is such a, well, baby in this chapter. He's self-centered and melodramatic and tantrum-y, and I love that about him. That's what makes him so utterly bewildering to the Doctor, who's like, "?!?!"

You raise an interesting point about how Brem feels in her head as opposed to how her father feels. I wonder if Brem feels more accessible somehow, more like her, more like someone she should identify with, you know?

I think I always write about the girly parts of Fortuna and Athena, but they're definitely just as much Time-Lord as their father and big brother. They were taught the same things and they excelled at most of the lessons. I just have traditionally written about that stuff less, for whatever reason. But yeah, I guess I should write more about how clever they are on their own. Although I think some of that comes across in "College," hopefully, at least with Athena. Brem may be protective, but Athena is the one he trusts to *know* things, she is indispensable to him. And, as you say, it does turn out that Fortuna is the best pilot of all of them, although I never really write about any of her flying lessons.

There was no real conscious effort to make Brem seem so different. Brem has always just been Brem, he is what he is, I did very little planning of him. And the girls were kind of always themselves. They aren't as demanding as characters as Brem is, but I don't really remember ever sitting down and thinking they should like glitter and pink. I think they just *did.* I don't know, it's quite strange, my writing process. :-)

I don't think the girls were tinkerers like Brem, though. I think they were big into art projects when they were kids. And, eventually, Fortuna finds cooking, which she adores.

But I was curious as to why you decided to do the fic on LiveJournal, and not also have it up in more frequented and public venues?
I was wondering that myself. I only found my way here by stumbling upon a link on DeviantArt in fan art of this verse. (which there needs to be more of, definitely, definitely.) Why not post to Teaspoon or some such?

Strangely, I always read fanfic on LJ. I didn't really know about Teaspoon or the other fanfic forums until later, so I always just posted my fanfic on LJ.

Weirdly, I've only ever read fics on LJ. So it was a natural place for me to put my fic, since it was the only site I read fics on. I know, I'm strange!

Rose practically has a degree in Doctor-management.

Fan-art! We need more artists!

Brem cracks me up as a baby, too. I love him so much. :-)

I think the Doctor dragged the girls around a bit, but he had Brem to drag around, so the girls had more space to be their own people. Brem kind of had to create that space, because his father was so taken with him that he could have suffocated him, in a way.

This is definitely one of my favorite chapters. I just adore it. I love Rose’s vulnerability, and I love the Doctor finally figuring out what all of this has been about the whole time. It’s one of the rare moments that we get to see the Doctor understand something about Rose without her having to spell it out for him, and I just LOVE it.

Brem at Daycare is priceless. I have to say that Rose reminded me just a bit of Loreli Gilmore from Gilmore Girls in this chapter. Especially when Rose is pissed as hell that that horrible woman had the nerve to call her son, weird. I love Rose so much in that moment.

Why is the Doctor so against the kids doing “normal” human things? Why does he seem to drag his feet so much about things like daycare and college? Is it because he’s selfish and just doesn’t want them to leave?

Rose inviting guests for a house-visit in the TARDIS is priceless. The Doctor’s reaction to discovering blue creatures in the TARDIS is just perfect. What a marvelous moment.

I love domestic arguments between Rose and the Doctor. I’ve had plenty of conversations where the refrigerator is slammed shut with the line of “we need milk.” PERFECT.

Brem telling them about the Weeping Angels - LOVE it. We need a fic where there are weeping angels! Possibly, my favorite of baddies.

So the Doctor is angry when Rose brings Brem back from the play date. Why is he mad? Because Rose went behind his back? Because Rose was going to hide it from him? You can tell how uber pissed he is because he doesn’t talk to Rose, or even look at her. He has an entire conversation with Brem in front of her, and it’s so obvious that he’s not talking to Rose at the moment. What all is going through his head here? I wish there were more description on HOW the Doctor looks at Rose when Brem asks him, “Are we weird?” Is he appalled? Is it more of a, “I told you so,” to Rose? Is he simply looking at her to gage her reaction?

And this is one of the few times we see the Doctor bring something up to Rose that he’s unhappy about. He snaps at her! And I don’t think he even knows what they are fighting about.

I do think that Rose loses what good friends she may have by having a family with the Doctor. I guess, I always thought that Jackie and Rose’s relationship was such that Jackie became the friend and confidant that Rose needed. I always thought it tragic that we never get a goodbye to Jackie. Because then, I can truly see Rose needing to work out issues of loneliness. Because he kids are grown and gone, and she has the Doctor - but she loses her Mom somewhere along the way and that has to be extra hard on Rose because she doesn’t have a close-knit bundle of friends.

I think Rose accepts that life with the Doctor is what her heart wants and she lives each day to the fullest with him, but I think it also would be lovely to see a story where we see her putting Jackie’s funeral together and the Time Lords going through the motions of a funeral - because Jackie would be the first major one. And then to see Rose and the Doctor figure out how to supplement what Jackie gave to Rose. Not replace, because obviously, a Mom can’t be replaced, but to give Rose that outlet of someone else.

My only question is kind of broad in regards to what your thoughts are about how Rose deals with future loneliness and what you think about in regards to Rose’s relationship with Jackie, and obviously, Jackie’s life coming to an end.

Jackie definitely does become a friend and confidante to Rose, possibly more than she would have been had Rose led a normal life where she could have more friends and talk about things more freely with other people. But yeah, she will eventually lose her mother.

I think Rose copes with the loneliness when she loses her mother. I think by then she and the Doctor are better about keeping friendships, something I hint at in "Surprise." Which is not to say it still doesn't hit her very hard. It's a huge blow to the entire family, Jackie dying, and that's why I haven't written it yet. I can't deal with how sad it would be for all of them.

You're very right, normally the Doctor is completely clueless about Rose, and she really has to sit down and explain things to him. But here he's the one with the flash of realization. It takes him a while to get there, but he does get there in the end.

Oooh, Rose as Lorelei Gilmore! Interesting! I kind of like that comparison!

I don't think it's entirely that he's selfish about wanting to keep the kids close, I think it's because the Doctor recognizes how *not* normal they are, and when Rose wants them to do "normal" things, he worries that she would rather their kids had turned out "normal," the sort of kids that could go off to school when they get to be five years old. He wanted to try to deny who their kids were, and Rose convinced him to embrace it instead, and now the Doctor doesn't want them to have to pretend, which they would have to in human circumstances like school.

I love to write the domestic arguments, I admit!

I agree, we do kind of need a Weeping Angels fic... ::muses::

He is mad that Rose went behind his back, to do something she knew he wouldn't approve of. And the look he gives her after the "Are we weird" is an I-told-you-so look. The Doctor is of the belief that, having chosen a TARDIS life, you can't now go back and pretend that it's not a "weird" life to the rest of the universe. His kids are perfect, in his view. He doesn't want them exposed to the judgment that will be leveled at them by the humans. And you're right, to the Doctor, this is the point of the argument. And to Rose the point of the argument is just that she's feeling alone and unsocialized and craving *people* around for her to talk to.

Random thoughts:
I think a lot of it is personality, but it must have been pretty hard on Brem to be the 3rd Timelord in existence (with the 2nd one off far away and unfeelable), Regardless of how bad the Doctor's childhood was, he was surrounded by a telepathic society. To have only one person filling the void in your head and have it be your angsty, 900 year old Dad would have been challenging to any baby. And as the only other Timelord, the Doctor is pretty much the only available rolemodel, which would also be hard on Brem. So I can totally see how Brem would have some issues. By the time Athena comes around, she has two Timelord consciousnesses to feed from, one of them very close to her age, which I think made it easier for her.

I actually like the little Jackie fight in this chapter. We so often see them bicker just over personality clashes and silly things, so it was nice to have this reminder that Jackie does have these valid (if off-base) concerns about the Doctor and they are rooted in her love for Rose. And, like you mention, it's a nice match to their scene years later in Pleasure Cruise where she talks about what a great father he is.

Random questions:
Do the Doctor and Rose ever travel with companions once the kids are long grown and off in their own TARDIS'?

Also, Rose in this universe doesn't seem that close to Jack, unlike their relationship in Season 1, which seemed pretty chummy. Is this because Rose is older and busier when they reconnect? I'm mostly wondering because his immortality seems to make him a prime candidate for a close friend.

You make a very good point about how hard it was for Brem to cope with the all-encompassing enormity of his father's complex psyche being the only telepathic thing he knows. It must have been exhausting for a little baby, he must have learned very early on to figure out how to survive and those survival techniques served him well for the rest of his life. And then I think you're right that Athena had a little more breathing room because the presences in her mind weren't entirely suffocating, they played off each other better.

Jackie does come a long way.

I think they might pick up a companion here or there. And you're right, Jack is a perfect friend for them. They are close as the years go on (I try to hint at that when they go to visit him in "Fortuna"), but I think they're never as close as they were in S1, just because *so* much happened in between then, so much that the Doctor did that Jack will have to forgive, and so much that made Rose grow up, you know? They still grow to be quite close, but it's a different closeness.

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The Chaosverse Book Club: Week Six

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Chapter 8

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Chapter 9

Chapter 9 Part 2

Chapter 9 Part 3

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Chapter 10

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