Chaosverse Book Club: Week Nine
Oct. 17th, 2011 01:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
earlgreytea68Chapter Seventeen of Chaos Theory
I love the Mickey that shows up in these few chapters of the Chaosverse. I always felt he was very happy in Pete's World, so, once we left Pete's World behind, we necessarily had to leave Mickey behind. But I like the fact that we get to see him here, and see that he is happy, and it's nice for him to finally get closure on the Rose chapter of his life. I don't think Mickey ever thought Rose would end up happy with the Doctor forever (and, in fact, in canon, she doesn't. Or does. I don't know, I find canon perplexing). So I think it's nice for him to be able to see that it's all turned out okay (or will do, once Rose gets home).
Mickey comes to visit Rose on the fifth day. I really wish he'd tried to make some kind of joke there, about "Maybe it'll be five-and-a-half days this time." Ah, missed dialogue opportunities...
I just realized that there's kind of a nice callback here to Jackie's reaction the first time she was told Rose was pregnant, when she asked if Rose was happy and so she was happy in reaction. Here, she's happy before Rose is, almost, like she knows she needs to nudge her along. Also, how far Jackie has already come in her relationship with the Doctor here. He's a good father, she tells Rose. And she's not just giving Rose a pep talk, she really believes it (because he is).
Questions for Discussion:
Pete says that Rose is almost exactly like her mother. Thoughts on that?
Chapter Eighteen of Chaos Theory
I'd forgotten how heartbreaking this scene is. Rose is so excited at the beginning of this chapter.
And here's my moment to say how sad I am that canon eventually ruined the canon Bad Wolf Bay scene for me. Because I remember the time before Rose came back, when I would interpret EVERY LITTLE MOMENT of this scene, looking for clues. There was so much room there for a fangirl to fit into. I loved re-writing the scene here, because there was so much to work with. (Now I watch this scene in canon and I'm like, "Whatever, Doctor, you're going to get her back and immediately leave her again on this very same beach, so cry me a river." I am harsh, dude.)
I also really love how the Doctor has slowly come to the realization of how important it is to say "I love you" out loud. In the previous chapter he says it to Brem, for what I've always believed is the very first time. I did the canon thing of cutting him off before he could say it, but I do like how he makes Athena say it to Rose. We have this thing in my family, where we say "I love you" at the end of every phone conversation, and this is because when my sister was a kid she would worry that she was going to die in a car crash or something, and the last thing she wanted us to remember of her was her saying that she loved us. Anyway, I let that sentiment leak over here. The Doctor thinks this might be the last time Rose talks to her kids, he wants her last memories of them to be them saying they love her, he's recognized the importance of that, not the human importance of it, just the importance of it. And, tragically, he recognizes it too late. On the other side of things, although Rose says that she loves them all, when she looks at the Doctor, what she really says is, "I know." Because Rose has reached the opposite conclusion: that the saying of it was never important, because she knew it every moment she spent with him, that he loved her. She knew it long before he did. And that's what was important.
And the thing is: they're both right, I think.
Ah, and here is where Brem promises never to ask for anything ever again if the Doctor gets Rose back. Which is the entire plot of "The Day Before Christmas."
What's interesting to me is that, so long as Brem is holding everything together, the Doctor is an absolute mess. When Brem finally breaks in this chapter, suddenly the Doctor is able to pull himself forward. It's like the Doctor knows that only one of them can break down at one time, that at least one of them always has to be functioning. There's a way in which having kids gives the Doctor the ability to not be okay all the time, a luxury he doesn't have in canon. His kids are too young for this at the moment, but it's a great relief for him when they get older. After all, my Doctor makes it intact through "End of Time," which he can only do because he has all three kids there to save the day. And Rose. And Matt.
This chapter is heartbreaking, but I think it ends on a little image of hope.
Questions for Discussion:
Rose doesn't tell the Doctor she's pregnant here. Did you agree with her decision to do that? Or were you yelling at your screen?
Chapter Nineteen of Chaos Theory
Brem is offended in this chapter that he's never met Sarah Jane before. This was the scene I was thinking of when he asks Fortuna about Sylvain in "How Fortuna Saved the Universe," and the Doctor is like, "He always thinks he must have met everyone in the universe."
I love Brem's comment about how his mother's named after a flower, and that's the same as being named after electro-magnetic radiation. Because he has a good point!
What I love about Brem in this scene is he dashes into Sarah Jane's life and changes it immediately. In the grand tradition of Time Lords everywhere. You get to the end of this chapter with Brem and you think, "Oh, we have some fun to look forward to with this character." Or, at least, I think that.
Questions for Discussion:
Do you think Sarah Jane should have given the Doctor a harder time? At any point in the Chaosverse?
Next Week: I am HOME for the weekend! Huzzah! However, this means I probably won't be online much.
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lorelaisquared graciously offered to put together some thoughts for next weekend, which will be Chapters 20, 21, and 22 of "Chaos Theory in Vortex Orbits in Relative Dimensions in Time and Space." Once she puts it up, I'll link to it so you don't have to go hunting for it. The weekend after that I am hosting a weekend bachelorette party, so will also not be around. If you would like to get in on the fun of hosting the book club for that weekend (Chapters 23-25 of Chaos Theory), let me know!
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Part 1
Date: 2011-10-18 01:07 am (UTC)Mickey is by far not one of my favourite characters in the show but I have to admit I found myself happy to see him again and to see that he was doing well in your universe. I think it's a good point about him wanting Rose to be happy. And she really, really is in your universe (Thought not at this exact point in her life, mind you) which is something I love because canon!Rose seems to have missed out on this.
Ooooh, interesting observation about Jackie in this chapter. She really has evolved so much and I love the way her relationship with the Doctor has gradually morphed into the mutual appreciation they now seem to have for each other.
Chapter 18
The Bad Wolf Bay scene at the end of Doomsday absolutely broke me the first time I saw it. To the point that I was crying with heaving sobs for hours afterward. It has less impact on me in rewatches though and I think it's largely because of what you point out - we know that she's just going to end up right back there again after fighting so hard to get back to him. That being said, even on the reread, your version of this scene had me sobbing. There's something about the addition of Athena and Brem that makes it even more heartbreaking. I also think that it ads a whole other layer of depth to the scene, particularly with the bits where love is expressed. It's just so much richer with children present.
I LOVE what you say about the Doctor and Rose coming to different conclusions about love here. That's so interesting. It makes so much sense though. To the Doctor, saying the words was never important until the possibility of ever saying them is taken away from him. It's like he needs to say it aloud to cling to the idea of it. That saying it make his love, and Rose more real even though they're going to be separated potentially forever. Only the Doctor would become more verbal in a crisis.
As for Rose, I think her internal knowing of how much he loves her is part of what helps her to survive this time in which she's so completely cut off from everything that she holds most dear.
Rose doesn't tell the Doctor she's pregnant here. Did you agree with her decision to do that? Or were you yelling at your screen?
I have mixed feelings on this, to be honest. The first time I read it I'm pretty sure I was (at least internally) screaming at the screen, but on reread I have thinky thoughts: On the one hand I feel that if she had told him it quite possibly would have made it even worse for him. It's clear from their interactions on the beach that regardless of how optimistic the kids are, the Doctor doesn't think he can get Rose back and she knows it. So to tell him at that point is almost cruel because it increases his loss and I think could quite possibly sent him even further into despair than he already is. On the other hand, we see in the chapters to come that the Doctor very nearly gives up on even trying to find a way to get her back and I can't help but wonder if he would have been able to find a little more resolve if he'd known about the pregnancy. Given how difficult her pregnancies are though I think he would have been quite frantic to get her back as fast as possible and it's quite likely that he wouldn't have had as many reservations about using Brem to hold the Vortex open so he would have rescued Rose sooner.
Re: Part 1
Date: 2011-10-19 02:53 am (UTC)I think Jackie's relationship with the Doctor evolves slowly, and, before you know it, she's saying nice things about him, like this.
I'm with you, that Bad Wolf Bay scene was the saddest thing I'd ever seen, but it's lost some impact for me. And I also think that the only thing to make that scene sadder is to have kids involved!!
Hahahahaha! The Doctor's inclination is always to be more verbal.
And yeah, I think Rose has gotten this far in her life, really, by always reading between the lines of what the Doctor says. She's gotten this far knowing that he loves her, even if he doesn't say it. She's used to it as a fact of her life.
I'm not usually a fan of keeping secrets like that, although I did want this to be a secret, so I had to have her do it. But I like what you have to say about how much the Doctor doubted his ability to get Rose, and how knowing she was pregnant would have changed that equation for him a bit, not getting through would ever even have been a vague possibility for him, and he would have galvanized to action much sooner than he did. I really like that idea.
Re: Part 1
Date: 2011-10-19 03:06 am (UTC)Whenever kids are involved in tragedies it's always worse. It's like it magnifies the pain or something.
I'm not usually a fan of keeping secrets like that, although I did want this to be a secret, so I had to have her do it. I'm the same. In fact this pretty much describes exactly how I felt about Rose keeping her bad wolfiness a secret in "What's to Come." It had to happen for plot reasons but I didn't like doing it.
But I like what you have to say about how much the Doctor doubted his ability to get Rose, and how knowing she was pregnant would have changed that equation for him a bit, not getting through would ever even have been a vague possibility for him, and he would have galvanized to action much sooner than he did. I really like that idea. Thank you! I'm glad you liked that. I really do think that him having knowledge of her pregnancy really would have changed his reaction afterward. Hmm another AU to explore sometime perhaps?
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Part 2
Date: 2011-10-18 01:08 am (UTC)Chapter 19
I LOVE the fact that you brought Sarah Jane in at this point and I really love the way you handled the whole thing.
Do you think Sarah Jane should have given the Doctor a harder time? At any point in the Chaosverse?
I think you actually achieved the right balance here. Sarah Jane is perceptive enough to have picked up on the Doctor's emotional state here and I think she realized that there was only so far she could push him at this point. Plus she made it clear that she was still hurt by the way the Doctor had abandoned her but she still is willing to help him.
When I read your notes on this chapter for the first time tonight I have to admit that I actually got a bit teary. Earlier this evening I watched pt1 of the last ever SJA story. Part 2 airs tomorrow and I find it both surreal and heartbreaking to realize that these were the last moments Elisabeth Sladen was ever on film before she died. :( I'm glad that she can continue to live on through fandom in media like this though.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-10-19 02:58 am (UTC)And I'm glad you think I struck the right balance here. I think we examine Sarah Jane's motivations a bit more in "Five Times the Doctor and Rose Tried Role-Playing...," when Rose and Sarah Jane are having a drink at the beginning and Rose is like, "Thanks for helping him, when you had no reason to," and Sarah Jane is like, "He looked like a wreck, Rose, how could I not help him?"
Sarah Jane will continue to live and live and live. I cannot bear to kill her off. RIP, Elisabeth Sladen.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-10-19 03:13 am (UTC)Oh yes, good point. I read that recently and had forgotten about that scene but was really happy to see it. I love it when your Rose interacts with some of the Doctor's other companions.
That seems to be the approach the producers of SJA took for which I'm really glad. I wasn't sure if they were going to tack on some epilogue or something but they didn't not really - just a little montage of Sarah Jane moments (which made me cry, esp when they showed her hugging Ten) that ended the words "And so the story goes on...forever" Which I love because it allows me to imagine her continuing on, fighting for the earth. So she can, like you said, continue to live, and live and live. I'm so glad they went that route.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-10-19 03:58 am (UTC)Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-10-19 07:02 pm (UTC)