earlgreytea68 | The Chaosverse Book Club: Week Two

Things Continue to Progress

I admit this is another fic that isn't one of my favorites, although I'm not sure why, because there are bits of it I really like: the description of the Doctor's state of undress, which I find exta-sexy because of how dressed up he normally is; the first mention of the Doctor's propensity to keep count of their shags, which shows up in a few other fics and is finally resolved in "Whispers in Her Ear, from Across the Room"; the last line. I do also like their tone in this fic, I think they feel very much like two people who had just gotten together and were still in that honeymoon phase and couldn't believe their luck at finding each other. Not to say they ever completely take each other for granted but, even with no other cues, you can tell that this is an early story whereas a story like "Evasive Maneuvers" is a later story. At least, I think you can.

Questions for Discussion:

There should be a week-long ficathon where someone posts a fic each day about each of the shags the Doctor describes: One that was slow, one that was fast, the one with you on top, the one with the thing with your teeth and my hip, the one with the thing with my tongue and your belly button, the one where we fell off the bed, and the one just after I woke you up. This is another question for discussion that is not a question for discussion but a command.

I set up the Doctor associating cups of tea with less than respectable activities, but I never did do anything with that. Did you ever think back to this story at any of the many, many times my Doctor drinks a cup of tea?

What are your favorite bits of this paticular little fic?

A Supernatural Excursion

I love this story. It's strange, because I tend to forget about it, and I don't re-read it very often, but every time I do re-read it I'm struck by the fact that I think it is absolutely hilarious. I love the Doctor's insecurity and vulnerability in the fic when it comes to Rose, but I love the Doctor-y-ness of him, for lack of a better word, in the rest of the fic. I love the mocking salute he gives to the truck that almost runs him over, I love his no-nonsense competence when they encounter Sam and Dean outside the house and he's just like, "I don't have time for this, leave me alone," I love his mocking "Professional what?" at Dean after they kill the werewolf, which I find some kind of prediction of Sherlock being all "The police don't consult amateurs" a few years later, I love his "There's a Lord involved here, but not the Lord you're thinking." Really, I think the Doctor has some great lines in this fic. And I have to admit, this fic has one of my favorite lines of dialogue ever: "I’ve got a lupine-wavelength haemovariform who needs a tummy tuck" Hahahahaha! I have no idea why, because I'm sure I've written better lines of dialogue, but that line out of the Doctor cracks me up every time I read it. (I also like how Sam says "Doctor what?" instead of "Doctor who?" here. Just because I think an American would say it that way. I think.)

I also love this fic because it lets me engage in one of my favorite things: viewing the Doctor/Rose relationship from the vantage point of an outsider.

Questions for Discussion:

The Doctor mentions that Rose has something of the wolf about her, which is something that comes up in "Tooth & Claw" and then, frankly, seems to mostly be dropped from canon ("Bad Wolf" references aside, since those don't really have to do with the effect on Rose). Frankly, I drop the idea from the Chaosverse (other than, you know, the notable exception of "College," but I tie that to her heart's desire and not to her wolf-ness). What are your thoughts on the "something of the wolf about her"? What did the line mean in canon? What should it mean in fanfiction?

The Doctor has Rose carrying a gun in this fic. Thoughts on that? I admit I wrote it without really giving thought to the Doctor's aversion to guns. Did any of you find it noteworthy here in this fic?

Do you have any particular bits of this fic that you find hilarious the way I do?

Everywhere

Ah, a post-GitF fic. Such an infamous subgenre in the DW genre!

I admit that I think Rose could have gone either way in this fic. That this was the turning point in their fragile relationship. She forgives him--and we all know they end up happily ever after--but I think she could have walked away from him and I wouldn't have blamed her. So this was a tricky fic to write, because I had to have Rose forgive him, but I had to make sure that she didn't seem too forgiving, if that makes sense. I didn't want it to feel like she was sacrificing the strength of her character for him.

I've never really played around with the fact that the Doctor thought the relationship with Rose was a bad idea, even as he let himself get involved. I should really do something with that. Because he was clearly as wrong as he has ever been in that regard (at least, in my 'verse).

I love the way this fic ends, too. Where are they going? Everywhere. And they did. :-)

Questions for Discussion:

Do you love GitF? Do you hate GitF? Regardless of how you feel about it, how do you think this fic does dealing with GitF?

Do you buy Rose forgiving the Doctor here? Or do you think she gave in too easily?

Next Week: Like a Kid in a Candy Store, One If by Land, Two If by Sea, and Chapter 1 of Chaos Theory in Vortex Orbits in Relative Dimensions in Time and Space.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com

Rose telling the story of the Doctor being a plastic surgeon with the bit of the bullet that couldn’t be removed in his chest was entertaining. Although I have to admit that it felt more like a slightly different Rose for a scene than I’m used to. I guess I always found Rose to be the warm and honest one - to a fault, and that’s what I always admired about her so much. Her ability to make everyone around her feel safe and trustworthy... Yes, she’d act out things with the Doctor, but we don’t see her doing it very often in canon, alone. I didn’t realize that the Doctor kept his existence a secret very often. He’s always seeming to just blurt out what he is and who he is, and then expects everyone to react by trembling and showing respect to his brilliance. Which is probably a psychological reason why he loves humans, because they are so clueless as to who or what he is. LOL.

But I did enjoy her story, and did enjoy the Doctor’s reaction to her telling tall tales. I could see Rose afterwards being more curious about who they are and trying to find out all she can about them - Dean and Sam, that is. At first, I guess she’s just trying to diffuse some random guy hitting on her, but at the end, I can see her and the Doctor needing to give them more of a third degree about their intentions and who they are. But again, this might be more like the Twilight story, where the people who can best appreciate the story are fans of the other genre? Perhaps I’m missing a lot because you intended your readers to know Supernatural?

And now I’m cringing, because if I’m wrong, it’ll be completely embarrassing, but oh well. I’m being honest with my thoughts and I hope you’ll take my thoughts as just what they are - what I’m thinking as it comes into my head.

The saddest and best line of this story, in my opinion, is when the Doctor says to Dean, “Because you’re pretty lucky, too, wouldn’t you say? Having a brother? See you around.” Because the Doctor has no family at this point, and Rose is it, even if they aren’t “official” yet. But they are, too, in their own way. Of course they are. But that line stood out for me as poignant, and sad, and I wonder if you had an ulterior motive for putting that in. Were you making reference to the fact that the Doctor doesn’t have a family, and as such, can be jealous of someone having a brother? Or just making note that there are things in the world that the Doctor can’t have, and that he does recognize that there are things to be jealous of, if not Rose?

You know, until you made reference to the Doctor making mention of Rose having something of the wolf about her - I didn’t remember that. I still don’t, so I’m taking your word for it. I’ll re-watch “Tooth & Claw” soon and see what I find. But in canon, I never found Rose to be “wolfish” or have something of a literal “wolf” inside of her. I always thought “Bad Wolf” was simply an anagram, and then didn’t put any thought into it after that. Now, I’m thinking I missed out on something really important, and that there was more of a reason that “Tooth & Claw” came so quickly in season 2.

My thoughts in regards to what that line means in fanfiction... well, I think the brilliance of fanfiction is that any line can mean anything to different people, which is part of what makes fanfiction so widespread and versatile. I think fanfiction writers have taken the “wolf” into her to give her extra life, to make her more Time Lord, to give her superpowers, to give her the ability to communicate with the TARDIS, and more. I’m not sure it’s so much the line that gives writers this, or just the concept in itself, though. I honestly don’t know what “something of the wolf about her” could possibly mean.

When I first read through this story, I remember enjoying it simply because it was different. Different POV, different story concept, and a different way of viewing the Doctor and Rose’s relationship. I love this story because of it’s uniqueness. In comparison to some of your more elaborate fics, as well as one-shots that came later, this isn’t one that I would categorize as a “favorite,” but that doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate it and love parts of it all the same.

From:

doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com

This has to be one of my favorite fics of the series. It’s angsty and poignant and heartbreaking and hopeful and gorgeous. What I love most about this story is how important it is. It is ever so important for the entire series. Because this needed to happen between them in order to establish that this is still our Doctor from canon. He needed to push Rose away, and I love how you used the Madame de Pompadour plot to do so. To me, that is one of the most sad and poignant episodes in Doctor Who - not just because the Doctor does leave Rose, but that it shows how incredibly short human lifespans are to the Doctor.

I think this fic is beautiful, and what makes it beautiful is how you go about telling this one story. You play it out slowly, and let the reader discover what happened, what the Doctor was thinking about why he pushes Rose away, and finally ending with what Rose really thinks about it. How hurt she is by what he’s done, and by whom he used to do it with.

There needed to be something that solidified their relationship from friends to shagging to permanent relationship - and this is the fic that did it for me. They needed to fight. The Doctor needed to push Rose away, and Rose needed to not be fine with that. What surprised me was that I originally thought this fic was going to be about the Doctor, and in a way, it very much was. But it was more about Rose.

The Doctor pushed her away because he got scared and then did exactly what she says he does - he was too much of a coward to tell her to leave. He would hurt her until she had just enough self-respect to get out. And to me, that’s very Doctor, and it’s very hurtful and mean. I love her line near the end about how she would never be mean to him like that.

To me, I needed to see Rose be her own person with her own choices and be able to stand up to him. Not because I needed to see Rose be strong - because I already know she is, but I needed to see Rose be on equal footing with the Doctor. I can’t imagine a better way to go about doing this other than having them fight, have the Doctor make a colossal mistake, and have Rose not only call him on it, but be forced to make the impossible choice to simply go home and leave him, or stick with him and continue the relationship. I had to understand that she wasn’t just a sappy love-sick teen in love with Mr. Magnificent. I needed to see that she saw him as a man, and that she still had a choice whether to be with him or not. I absolutely think that even had she gone home, she still would have been in love with him. I think he’s the kind of person you fall in love with, and then no matter what they do - you will never stop loving them. But I think she would have left him, if it was worse for her to stay with him. I do love that Chasoverse Rose is strong and will do what she needs to do to keep her pride and sanity and self-preservation, whereas I always got the impression that canon Rose was a bit young, and a bit naive and a bit blind in her love for the Doctor. So I sincerely adored this fic because you gave Rose a maturity and put her on equal footing with the Doctor. Because not only does she choose to stay with him, he also chooses to let her stay, and to be hers for the rest of her life. And that’s a HUGE deal for him.

From:

doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com

Their interaction throughout this story is just perfect. My heart just wrenches at reading the pain between the lines. And the “Did you kiss her”, “She kissed me”, “Did you kiss her back,” “A little” - how awful to hear that. That would seriously break my heart. I think Rose is made of much more sturdy stuff than I would ever be capable of. I can imagine that they work through this and make the decision to do better in the future - but I can’t imagine that everything is pleasant and hunky-dory for the next few days or even, adventures. But then again, Rose has the ability to forgive and see the best in people, so perhaps I’m wrong and she just let that one go and allowed them to move forward. She does take a bit of time to herself to think things over. I suppose she very well could have fumed then and got over her anger enough to simply let it go and forgive him.

The beginning - that paragraph you have Rose say, “Everything happened with Reinette. And that’s not like you. You flirt. God knows, you flirt compulsively. But not like this. Not this way. And the thing is that, at first, I thought it was her, I really did. I thought, you know, you’re a bloke, and she’s beautiful and even the cleverest creature in the universe is sometimes ruled by the contents of his pants, or something. But it wasn’t about her, not really. Reinette was all about me, and how you’re trying to drive me away. Because I’m too close for you right now. I’m too close, and you don’t want to watch me wither and die, but you’re too much of a coward to talk to me about it, and so instead you’re doing this, you’re playing this ridiculous game with me, to see how much you can hurt me before I gather enough self-respect to walk away from you. You manipulative bastard.” My God - could you have had Rose more dead-on perfect? It is heartbreaking to read this. And his reply about “Is that the arbitrary line that has to be crossed? Does the rest of it mean nothing, as long as I didn’t see her naked?” How cruel. She did good to walk away, because I think I would have punched him in the face. It is very Doctorish, though, and I hate how he takes her accusation and belittles it like that. He is definitely old enough to know how to hurt someone he loves. And he’s old enough to be able to do it successfully.

I think that’s why I was so happily surprised at how quickly he comes around and starts begging for forgiveness. I think the only scene that could have made this more perfect is something like you have from some of the future stories - have him go to his “office” and sulk and worry, or show him in agony of fear to being alone... You do give him one line about having to find something to keep him occupied while she “thinks”, and that was probably one of the most tragic lines of the story. Because that’s absolutely true. How awful it must have been for him to have to wait. And I wonder how much she let him suffer because she probably knew very well how much it hurt him to wait. But I don’t think she’s that cruel. But a woman scorned... she may have let him wait a bit longer than necessary. One can hope. :)

What shocked me the most was how cool, calm, and collected Rose seemed while packing. She must have been dying inside - she had to have been. But she’s so mature now. It was really something to read, and yet, a part of me wanted to see her throw something or show him a flash of anger or tears or something to give him that horrible gut-wrench. But somehow, you still gave that without actually showing it to us.

From:

doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com

I will say that her line of “Why did it have to be her. Why did it have to be with Reinette” almost made me cry. Because for the first time, we actually see Rose’s fear. In the last fic, we get a glimpse of the Doctor’s vulnerability with Rose leaving him for a younger human, but in this we get so much more than a glimpse with Rose. We understand that she can’t understand why he’s with her in the first place. And when he saves Reinette and leaves Rose, it doesn’t surprise Rose - it just hurts, because she doesn’t think she deserves to be with him in the first place. And yet, she does because she’s strong and has amazing self-strength in this universe. She’s strong enough to call him on it, and to let him see her pain.

I do love Mickey in this. He brought that needed lightness to the story, because it’s pretty dark without it. I love that you have Mickey playing video games - and I’m sorry, but that moment where Mickey tells the Doctor he’s watching him, and then reiterates by pointing his fingers from his eyes to the Doctor’s and the Doctor’s amusement at that and yet, acceptance that Mickey’s right and he’s a bit scum at the moment - I ADORE that moment. I laughed out loud. It’s so dead on Mickey and hilarious and I love Mickey being supportive.

Speaking of Mickey - I really love how you had the Doctor point out to Rose that she was still stringing him along - even after they were together. That is a really interesting thing I would have enjoyed more into that as well. The fact that the Doctor even calls her on it and she doesn’t deny it. But I think she strung him along a bit, not to string him along - but so that she didn’t hurt him, because as the Doctor says, Mickey never hurt her. I think Rose would never willingly hurt Mickey. I think she just fell hard for the Doctor and it just happened and I think Mickey figured it out and was bummed over it, but was fine. I could imagine a small scene following this where Rose does come out with it and tell Mickey that it’s over, and Mickey can just sort of grin sadly and tell her that he’s known for a long time, but that it was nice of her to finally come out and say it. That he’s been just waiting for her to get the guts to do it. But I like to think that Mickey is perceptive enough on his own to know when Rose left him for the Doctor.

Lastly, what I really loved about this story was that it wasn’t about sex. It was about love, and not once is love ever mentioned. When Rose says, forever. If I’m going to stay - it’s going to be forever. You have to want me to,” and he responds with, “I want you to.” I think right there, they did the equivalent of marriage and love and loyalty and everything and in a way, it’s very much sort of like vows. And what amazes me is that love and loyalty and marriage never came up.  
I love that there isn’t sex, and that they don’t fight half-dressed. Because those fights seem very quick and then are usually followed by fast and lustful make-up sex. But this was so much more. This was about their relationship and their future, and the day after. I adored it. You could not have written it more perfectly.

I love this story. Definitely one of my favorites.

What does GitF mean? I feel like a moron, but I’ve stared at it for several minutes and can’t figure out what it means. I’m preparing myself for a headdesk.

From:

doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com

I definitely buy Rose forgiving the Doctor. I mean - she has to, doesn’t she? I think she took the right amount of time. I am not sure he groveled enough, or we got to see him tortured with fear for her leaving him - because she absolutely could have left him. But I still love it. I think you more than make up for it in later stories in the series, where he is very tortured and very angsty and very dark, and I think with him losing Rose and everything that happens between them - I think as a whole - this is perfect. As a stand-alone, I could have seen more angst. But in looking at the series as a whole, I think it’s perfect. The perfect amount of angst, the perfect amount of buildup. The perfect amount of forgiveness and moving on. And lastly, the perfect amount of giving the series a concrete basis for their relationship. Because before this, they were just shagging and having adventures. And from this point on - they are truly a one-of-a-kind, in that forever kind of way, cemented couple.

From:

doctorwhorecs.livejournal.com

How are you going to cover the novel-length and multi-chapter stories? Are you planning to do just three chapters a week?

From:

earlgreytea68.livejournal.com

Yup, just three chapters a week. Otherwise I'll never be able to keep up!

From:

earlgreytea68.livejournal.com

Yes, you're right, I don't spend a ton of time dwelling on the Doctor's panic, but he's definitely panicking. And yeah, from this point on, you're right, they're a couple.

From:

earlgreytea68.livejournal.com

Rose doesn't give herself enough credit. She thinks that Reinette is everything she's not. What she doesn't see is that Reinette is everything that she *is.*

Mickey frequently provides much needed comic relief!

It's always bothered me that Rose strings Mickey along, and I think it doesn't get pointed out enough in fics, so I liked letting the Doctor point it out, that Rose isn't entirely blameless in this whole thing. I think she was just young and the thing with the Doctor took her wholly by surprise, and I think Mickey knew before Rose knew, to be honest. I think everyone knew before Rose knew! ;-)

They never talk about love, the Doctor and Rose, until Chaos Theory. It's always *about* love, but they never say it in so many words. And yeah, I didn't want this to be muddied with sex, it was the sort of argument that needed to take place fresh and separated from that.

GitF=Girl in the Fireplace

From:

earlgreytea68.livejournal.com

I think Rose probably mulls it over a bit, the fact that there was a kiss involved. I think they probably have another conversation about it. I think it takes her a bit of time to trust that he'll never do it again. But I think eventually she does realize that it was a one-time moment of insanity for him.

The Doctor is *so* effective at arguing. As you say, he's old, he's learned how. I give Rose a lot of credit at knowing that he wants to slice at her, so she just walks away calmly. And I think it's when she walks away calmly that the Doctor starts to panic. He was braced for her to fight with him. If she's not going to fight, then it just leaves him alone with his thoughts to realize that he's making a huge mistake. And she made him suffer quite a bit. Mostly because she was trying to make a huge decision.

And I think she was dying inside as she packed, but I think she was also numb. Like, she was so hurt that she couldn't let herself process it, she just had to give herself something else to do.

From:

earlgreytea68.livejournal.com

I love how people seem to live this fic! I think it's right that, before the Doctor and Rose could truly settle into a relationship, they needed to have this huge fight, just have it out so that they could get the terms on the table.

And I really enjoyed this fic, because I really wanted to delve into their minds, which hopefully I did. I wanted to be deep into all their motivations, secret and un-.

I like the idea that this fic is more about Rose, because it is. She's the one with the agency in this fic, with the choice to make. The Doctor just waits passively for her decision, because he's the one who's way too active in the episode and provokes them to this point!

The Doctor is hurtful and mean, he can be far more petulant than Rose. I think because he's used to being selfish, he's used to getting away with it, really. And yeah, Rose needed to establish right away that she wasn't going to let him get away with it, she needed to make sure that she was the equal in the relationship. I think this fic is where she lays the foundation for the strong, mature Rose that shows up in the rest of the 'verse. And yeah, the Doctor letting her stay on *her* terms of "forever" *is* a huge deal.

From:

earlgreytea68.livejournal.com

Sigh. Responded to this, and then my Internet died...

Anyway, general gist:

I think Rose was having a bit of fun at Dean's expense. Immature, but she's young, and sometime she and the Doctor do pretend, like in The Idiot's Lantern or Tooth & Claw.

Never cringe! I love your ideas! And it could be this story works much better if you know SPN.

As for the "brother" line, I think I wanted it to convey both points: that the Doctor lost his family and it still hurts him, even though he has Rose.

The werewolf in T&C says that Rose has something of the wolf about her. That always fascinated me, but I don't think the show really does anything with it.

This is a different story for me, which I think is why I like it so much. I'm always surprised I wrote it!